Digest for alt.sports.hockey.nhl.mtl-canadiens@googlegroups.com - 9 updates in 2 topics

Tuesday, June 13, 2017

Mike <mike@gmail.com>: Jun 13 11:12AM -0300

I Got this from RightNyder on HIO - so not my effort but his
2009-10: Weber paid $4M more as Subban goes to semifinals with only two
NHL games under his belt.
2010-11: Weber paid nearly $4M more as Subban scores two fewer goals as
a rookie.
2011-12: Weber paid $4M more for 13 more points.
2012-13: Weber paid $11M(!) more as Subban wins Norris Trophy
2013-14: Weber paid $11M(!) more as Subban gets three fewer points and
also goes to semifinals again; where Weber has never been.
2014-15: Weber paid $7M more as Subban outscores him by 15 points, is a
first-team all-star and a Norris finalist.
2015-16: Weber paid $7M more as Subban records the same amount of points
in 10 fewer games.
2016-17: Weber paid $3M more as Subban records two fewer points in 12
fewer games and goes to the final, two rounds past where Weber has ever
Total: Weber paid $50M (!!!!!!) more than Subban during that stretch.
Both were first-team all-stars twice. Subban won a Norris, Weber did
not. Subban in the playoffs: 13-37-50; two semifinals, one finals.
Weber in the playoffs during the same span: 11-11-22. Never past the
second round.
Gerry <gerry14@hotmail.com>: Jun 13 10:09AM -0700

Pfft. It's the next 9 years that really matter anyway. In the last 8 of those years, Weber will make a paltry $30M. And you have him for !9 years!.
Whereas Subban has a mere 5 years left and will make a whopping $47M. Then you lose him to unrestricted free agency. Or he retires to go start a fashion business or become a celebrity chef or dancing with the stars contestant or somesuch nonsense.
Weber's stoic leadership over the next !9 years! will be far more important than anything else (points... Norris trophies... wins... Stanley Cups... pffft again).
Just watch.
Chuck <barberphoto411@gmail.com>: Jun 13 02:55PM -0700

On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 1:09:42 PM UTC-4, Gerry wrote:
> Just watch.
> l8r,
> Gerry
For the near future, I doubt there will be any significant difference when comparing their production. The problem for Montreal is the blind faith they had in Petry and Markov to back him up. Whether its Subban or Weber, with no difference in the remaining Hab defence core, MB did not do enough to ensure the remainder of his defence could provide anything resembling productive consistency. Nashville was able to pair together defencemen of comparable offensive skill. Montreal? They paired Weber and Emelin!!!!
Gerry <gerry14@hotmail.com>: Jun 13 03:09PM -0700

To me, the real difference will be Subban's health and attention span. If he gets back to being healthy, and if he doesn't get too distracted with all his off-ice interests, he can be a 60-pt per season defender while Weber is around 40-ish for the next few seasons. Subban will continue to have to share his PP time either way, though. But those are significant "ifs".
Meanwhile, I don't think there's any debate whatsoever that Subban drives possession and is a better defensive player than Weber at this stage. Weber ticks boxes in old school "crosschecks guys in the crease" metrics, but nothing else puts him in Subban's class in this area.
Chuck <barberphoto411@gmail.com>: Jun 13 03:27PM -0700

On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 6:09:10 PM UTC-4, Gerry wrote:
> Meanwhile, I don't think there's any debate whatsoever that Subban drives possession and is a better defensive player than Weber at this stage. Weber ticks boxes in old school "crosschecks guys in the crease" metrics, but nothing else puts him in Subban's class in this area.
> l8r,
> Gerry
I think both Gainey and MB made a similar big error. They both made big moves affecting the core of the team. They both did little other then have blind faith when it came to making no moves to ensure the support players on the team could back those moves up = too many what you seen is what you got low production veterans.
Gerry <gerry14@hotmail.com>: Jun 13 05:49AM -0700

It's pretty frustrating how dismissive they seem to be of talent that comes from within. They spend the time to draft these guys and at least put in whatever form of development they employ. Then many of the few players who do manage to claw their way past the incompetent coaching and into the lineup... well, it sure seems like they have a tough time accepting those players as indviduals.
Obviously Subban is poster boy for their inability to objectively evaluate talent. But it's going to be pretty troubling if they also go that route with Galchenyuk and Beaulieu in the next couple of weeks. The writing seems to be on the wall for those two, however.
It's getting a bit ridiculous, really. After the Price draft - now a dozen years ago - they've had a pretty spotty draft performance. It's not like they've drafted purely on traditional character traits either. They've gone for lots of guys who've had question marks.
2006 - Fischer was a noted flake that many teams DND'ed. Busted.
2007 - McDonagh and Subban in the same draft. Holy lord. McDonagh wouldn't leave school right away to join the team so he was labeled and traded. Remember when Pacioretty said he was better off going back to Hamilton if they couldn't use him in a better role and the controversy that caused? Narrow escape there!
2008 - traded the 1st for Tanguay. Played 50 games for the team and was let go after refusing to play with an injury. Labeled disloyal. Played 7 more seasons and got nearly 300 more pts after the Habs ditched him, though.
2009 - Louis Leblanc. I think he is retired now and went back to Harvard? Other teams were worried about his hockey/life balance. Habs pushed him to leave Harvard and generally did a crap job developing him too.
2010 - Jarred Tinordi. After 4 AHL seasons and his return from the PED suspension, safe to say bust now right?
2011 - Nathan Beaulieu. Not saying he's a saint or anything, but regardless of his personality traits, he looks to me like a player who should be rounding into form as a smooth-skating middle-pairing NHL defensemen right about now. Instead, likely to be traded soon. Probably not for a great return.
2012 - Alex Galchenyuk. You don't get #3 overall very often. Habs have jerked him around for years now and will try to trade him.
2013 - Michael McCarron. I guess we'll see. So far he looks like he could become a reasonable bottom-6 grinder.
2014 - Nikita Scherbak - another ultra-skill guy who already seems to be getting labeled and held back in the minors for having more of a sunny personality than being a robo-warrior type.
2015/16 - Juulsen and Sergachev. TBD. But if they are making any bold trades this summer, decent chance one of these is used as a trade chip.
Gallagher is maybe the only guy they've really brought through from within? He played 36 games in the AHL before clawing his way up and sticking. Plekanec and Markov are from different eras. Lehkonen and Emelin did their developing overseas... maybe that would be the best approach for the Habs in the future... draft Europeans, let them stay home and develop until they are ready to step straight into the lineup!
Other young guys have come up and shown a bit of a spark at times, struggled at others, like Carr, Pateryn, Andrighetto, very briefly Hudon, but they can't ultimately break through the choking wall of bargain bin veteran depth guys the team amasses. There's no patience whatsoever with them, which is maybe not unusual in the NHL in general. But some of those guys will have NHL careers in other cities, and the Habs will have nothing at all in return to show for it.
Is a rebuild really a good idea here? I'm thinking that would be pretty painful!
Nyssa <Nyssa@flawlesslogic.com>: Jun 13 09:21AM -0400

Gerry wrote:
> would be pretty painful!
> l8r,
> Gerry
And will have the same results in the end if they follow the
identical pattern of non-development of young players and
relatively poor scouting of non-major junior talent.
I doubt that CJ is enough of a fighter to change MB's
MO or the attitudes in force within the organization.
Inventive play? Outgoing personality? Values education?
Forget about it!
Nyssa, who is not optimistic about the possibilities of
a rebuild with the same old gang in charge of it
Gerry <gerry14@hotmail.com>: Jun 13 06:48AM -0700

I wonder if they just need to get on the same page to some extent. It seems like they don't necessarily shy away from players at the draft table who have "personality", and they don't seem to have any aversion to drafting smaller, skillsier, or happy-go-luckier kids in general. But then when it comes to developing and integrating some of those kids down the road, the fit to their organizational philosophy just isn't there.
Maybe they need to learn that they can't change people? Or that it's not a great idea to try/feel like they need to.
If what they want is a bunch of gung-ho stoney-faced boring robo-Crosby-quote machine players who don't have any purpose in life beyond shedding some bleu-blanc-rouge blood on the ice for the team, ok, maybe they should make more of a concerted effort to try to draft only those types of kids? Granted, picking teenagers you can't always evaluate those traits and potentials with 100% success. But you could do a lot better than they have with some of their flakier picks.
I think the NHL playoffs really drove home to me that the NHL has embraced a relatively thugly type of game again, it's all about traffic, no time or space available, try to pinball the puck through the screens and shot-blockers, and dump it somewhere safe if you can't. Speed and skill and creativity aren't really very important anymore. Ok, speed still is... have to get in the lanes and pressure all over the ice. It's not just in Montreal that any colourful displays get jumped on as undesirable.
If that's the NHL game going forward, and if you want to deploy a platoon of killer robots to flourish as the epitome of that trend, ok, I guess that's your prerogative. But might as well be consistent and draft with that philosophy in place too... maybe fewer kids would be left by the wayside and messed around in the process?
Chuck <barberphoto411@gmail.com>: Jun 13 10:05AM -0700

When was the last time they had a coach who could read the strengths and weaknesses of his players and adjust the system to maximize what they do best. They never seem able to escape going with a lowest common denominator of dump and chase defence. Where offence is stifled at both ends of the ice, where offence comes from mistakes rather then skill. I wish they'd take a chance and make rule changes to get offence back in the game as well as getting rid of the flexible rule book that has sucked the skill out of the game
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