Digest for alt.sports.hockey.nhl.mtl-canadiens@googlegroups.com - 10 updates in 1 topic

Sunday, June 11, 2017

Nyssa <Nyssa@flawlesslogic.com>: Jun 11 09:24AM -0400

Since the NHL has been scheduling their Final games with
looooong gaps in between, I've been listening to a few of
the AHL's Calder Cup playoffs during the gaps.
 
First, it's interesting to note that the two teams in the
Final both have parent NHL teams that missed the NHL playoffs:
Grand Rapids = Detroit and Syracuse = Tampa Bay.
 
So it looks like the teams that didn't quite make it at least
have some good prospects and two way contract players down
on the farm, which should mean good things for their future
success in the NHL. We all know that Tampa went down to the
wire in not making it, a lot due to injuries to key players.
 
GR is leading 3 games to 2 with Game 6 in GR on Tuesday.
 
A couple of ex-Habs are doing their thing for Syracuse,
Bournival and Dumont. Both are picking up points and
they've even given Dumont an "A" for his leadership.
Compare and contrast that to their play with the Habs.
 
Could it be that they are actually getting some *coaching*
in Syracuse and previous to that in their time with Tampa?
You all know what I mean. They're getting training to
hone their skills plus chances out on the ice to put that
into practice on a regular basis. Not nailed to the bench
if they make a mistake.
 
Good on 'em!
 
Lack of that real coaching and training cost the Habs these
two players and others over MT's tenure as faux coach.
 
I'm *so* glad MT is history. Perhaps CJ will be more of
a teaching coach with a higher tolerance for the flubs
that are just part of the learning and growing process.
 
Nyssa, who will admit that she hopes GR wins on home ice
on Tuesday, but is pleased that our ex-Habs are pulling
their weight for the Crunch
Chuck <barberphoto411@gmail.com>: Jun 11 06:42AM -0700

Speaking of former Habs still in playoff hockey. Between the finalists there are 4 former Hab defencemen they had little patience for. Subban, Hainsey and Y Weber lots of playing time. Streit a press box spare
Nyssa <Nyssa@flawlesslogic.com>: Jun 11 10:03AM -0400

Chuck wrote:
 
> the finalists there are 4 former Hab defencemen they had
> little patience for. Subban, Hainsey and Y Weber lots of
> playing time. Streit a press box spare
 
And PA Parenteau (not a defenseman) who scored a winning
goal for Nashville in Game 4...then was benched for Game 5.
 
Go figure...
 
Nyssa, who wonders if Parenteau will be back in tonight and
adds a GO PK!
Gerry <gerry14@hotmail.com>: Jun 11 07:57AM -0700

Well, all apologies, but I would take a relatively dismissive stance wrt all the players mentioned here so far. (Ok, except Subban - but all the other fringier ones). Not that the narrative is wrong - the Habs have had terrible development and coaching at both levels for a while. Just these specific players don't really represent great examples to build a case on.
 
Dumont and Bournival are classic tweeners, Dumont has been scrappy and worked his butt off to try to make it - he actually played half the season in the NHL with the Lightning - but at the end of the day they are just more of those depth guys that we slag Bergevin for accumulating too many of already. From a hometown kind of perspective, maybe it would be nice to integrate our own bottom line tweeners into the lineup rather than trade draft picks or assemble a host of outsiders in those roles. But it's largely a cosmetic thing. The team wouldn't be better or worse either way.
 
Hainsey had his problems. Nice that he matured in a totally unexpected way, and became something quite different than he was for the Habs. Sometimes that's just the way of it. Weber is like Nesterov, you can find those guys anywhere. Streit is about to retire... he made a nice run, but I still don't think he'd have helped the Habs significantly at any point.
 
Mostly, I'd say those are examples of "par for the course". Fringe players bounce around, some players need a change of scenery to wake up and change their ways, etc.
 
But nevertheless it's nice to see them doing well.
 
l8r,
Gerry
Gerry <gerry14@hotmail.com>: Jun 11 07:59AM -0700

Oh yeah and Parenteau... well, I still don't understand how he has an NHL job, but surely that can't last much longer. It's as much on the NHL and the style of hockey that we see these days, but nevertheless, Parenteau was definitely no loss to the Habs either IMHO.
 
l8r,
Gerry
Chuck <barberphoto411@gmail.com>: Jun 11 08:16AM -0700

Some teams are better at getting more out of fringe players. For all the teams involved, Weber, Hainsey and Streit filled their roles this season. Next season they will all be looking elsewhere for work. Unlike Montreal's first offseason roster move was to resign a rather unproductive 4th line trade deadline pickup! The above teams built thier teams from the top down rather then the 4th line up
Nyssa <Nyssa@flawlesslogic.com>: Jun 11 03:46PM -0400

Chuck wrote:
 
> unproductive 4th line trade deadline pickup! The above
> teams built thier teams from the top down rather then the
> 4th line up
 
Oddly enough, there have been several stories lately about
players who were undrafted and/or playing in the ECHL who
were signed by teams either through the players coming into
training camp on tryouts or their scouts seeing them and
giving them a chance.
 
How many prospects have the Habs found through their scouting?
 
I wouldn't count Radulov since he was a known KHL quantity
and basically a walk-in freebie.
 
So on two counts, other teams are doing better: developing
their picks in-house and finding hidden gem freebies down
in the college or ECHL ranks.
 
The point I was trying to make, perhaps not clearly enough,
is that the Habs don't have the proper infrastructure in
place to do proper development and the scouting has been
hit-and-miss. Moving the AHL affliate around from city to
city isn't hiding the fact that the development coaching
on the farm isn't doing its job well at all.
 
It isn't the city the team is in that's important, it's
the coaching staff and their philosophy on player development
and whether or not that fits in well with the parent team.
 
Look at Detroit and Grand Rapids over the past few years
at how well the kids being called up fit into the system.
Ditto the Pens and Wilkes-Barre.
 
Another thing to add to MB's to-do list hopefully in consultation
with CJ to improve the system that hasn't been working too well
to prepare for the future.
 
Nyssa, who is counting the hours until tonight's game and
hoping that there will be a Game 7 on Wednesday
Chuck <barberphoto411@gmail.com>: Jun 11 03:05PM -0700

With a front office chock full of retired NHL players , can they look past giving fringe journeyman players an umpteenth chance at hanging onto a position in the NHL vs an undrafted, unnoticed player whose skills slipped under the radar, who is yet to receive a first shot?
zip by <kilgore@trout.com>: Jun 11 07:09PM -0400

In article <28e4d1d0-816d-49c7-b4e3-f23174d387ec@googlegroups.com>,
 
> Well, all apologies, but I would take a relatively dismissive stance wrt all
> the players mentioned here so far.
 
Point taken, Gerry. Otoh, it is my opinion that it is important to
build a winning culture on the farm. Guys like Dumont walk to another
club and have some success as "tweeners" not the least of which is
helping the Syracuse to a championship final.
 
This is no small thing.
 
And of course we replaced him as C with Friberg, who has now also
walked.
 
Would it not be better to retain these guys who have already given a
lot to the organization?
 
Instead year after year we sign more "tweeners" for their alleged
leadership qualities and fill out the roster with 25 day tryouts ad
nauseam.
 
And they are coached by someone who is possibly the only person on the
planet who is less imaginative than MT.
 
The Habs organization should aim higher.
Gerry <gerry14@hotmail.com>: Jun 11 05:34PM -0700

And this is definitely an issue. For the last 6 years, they've been utterly dismissive of the importance of winning in the minors. Under Lefebvre they missed the playoffs 4 years straight, then made just a brief appearance this season for the first time in 5 years.
 
And somehow the word on the street seems to be that they're actually considering retaining Lefebvre.
 
The rhetoric from the front office seems to be that they aren't focused on winning, but rather on development, and how important it is for the farm team to play systematically like the parent club in order to facilitate the integration of callups.
 
Well...
 
Anyway, I totally agree that the farm system has been awful, and that there are several factors which go into that. They are not developing players from within. Now, past a certain point, minor leaguers are naturally going to go to new organizations to get a fresh chance, and then become hired journeymen as the years go by. I don't think that path has necessarily been surprising for some collection of players like the ones Nyssa originally mentioned. In isolation. Players like that do move around. Sometimes the Habs have brought in new quality journeymen (Redmond, Terry) to replace the departed ones, some seasons less so, every team does. But I do definitely agree that the Habs overall are lacking in their development approach, and the farm system has languished.
 
It'd be nice to think there would be a fresh start this year with the team moving to presumably permanent local digs. For a while there was talk of some of the fresh Q coachs like Bouchard maybe getting a look to replace Lefebvre. But that seems to have died down. I guess we'll see, but frankly I think we've already seen most of Bergevin's MO now, and so I'm not exactly optimistic about things getting better on the farm.
 
l8r,
Gerry
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