Digest for rec.sport.football.college@googlegroups.com - 25 updates in 3 topics

Wednesday, May 24, 2017

Ken Olson <kolson@freedomnet.org>: May 23 10:39PM -0400

On 5/23/2017 3:01 PM, YosemiteSam wrote:
 
>> He isn't.
 
> well damn I knew Johnny & Ed were on MeTv but here in rsfc !
 
> ~YS
 
Who's on 1st?
"The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior" <iamtj4life@gmail.com>: May 23 04:58AM -0700

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 10:18:32 PM UTC-5, Some dued wrote:
> Ex "neo-Nazi" arrested for allegedly killing 'neo-Nazi' roommates who 'disrespected' his new Muslim faith
 
> http://abcnews.go.com/US/tampa-man-arrested-allegedly-killing-neo-nazi-roommates/story?id=47564558
 
I'm gonna need a spreadsheet to follow this one
JGibson <james.m.gibson@gmail.com>: May 23 05:14AM -0700

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 11:18:32 PM UTC-4, Some dued wrote:
> Ex "neo-Nazi" arrested for allegedly killing 'neo-Nazi' roommates who 'disrespected' his new Muslim faith
 
> http://abcnews.go.com/US/tampa-man-arrested-allegedly-killing-neo-nazi-roommates/story?id=47564558
 
And the 4th roommate gets arrested on unrelated charges but only after police discovered his explosives because they were in the apartment investigating the murder.
Futbol Phan <sgzphd@gmail.com>: May 23 08:44AM -0700

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 7:14:32 AM UTC-5, JGibson wrote:
> > Ex "neo-Nazi" arrested for allegedly killing 'neo-Nazi' roommates who 'disrespected' his new Muslim faith
 
> > http://abcnews.go.com/US/tampa-man-arrested-allegedly-killing-neo-nazi-roommates/story?id=47564558
 
> And the 4th roommate gets arrested on unrelated charges but only after police discovered his explosives because they were in the apartment investigating the murder.
 
Ah yes, the bomb maker/National Guardsman
Ken Olson <kolson@freedomnet.org>: May 23 10:36PM -0400

On 5/23/2017 11:44 AM, Futbol Phan wrote:
 
>>> http://abcnews.go.com/US/tampa-man-arrested-allegedly-killing-neo-nazi-roommates/story?id=47564558
 
>> And the 4th roommate gets arrested on unrelated charges but only after police discovered his explosives because they were in the apartment investigating the murder.
 
> Ah yes, the bomb maker/National Guardsman
 
WTF?? A guy can't even keep a few bang-bangs around just for shits and
grins? Where has America gone.
 
 
 
If you don't recognize this as sarcasm then GFY. ;)
"The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior" <iamtj4life@gmail.com>: May 23 05:45AM -0700

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 8:30:43 PM UTC-5, RSFC Moderator wrote:
 
> > The electric cars are an outlier in a sense - a limiting factor to SD cars, is refueling - "might" be easier to find self-recharging stations via electric than for fuel pumps - but there's no reason we can't do a lot w/ regular fuel vehicles
 
> > As for corporate/SD connection - that one's easier - A) higher/more efficient vehicle usage - most cars sit unused for most of the time - why not rotate them into action more like taxis? This should lead to far lower costs for ride usage as opposed to ownership B) software - this will be proprietary for some time, I'd think - each company w/ their own routing/usage software and be "enhanced" via pool information sharing. Individual cars won't have the same information advantage - much less ride sharing.
 
> Are self driving cars going to be much more expensive to purchase? The motor will be smaller as they are more tool and less toy. They will have more sensors, but fewer controls. My WAG is that comes out a wash.
 
Hard to say - depends on whether or not they're fleet or personal - fleet cheaper b/c more stripped down - otherwise, cost might be higher due to extra software and other components
 
> Is the main cost of a car per mile or per year? The first separate numbers I found [1] say cars costs 20 cents/mile + $1050/y which is 7 cents/mile at 15k miles/y. By these numbers, 75% percent of the cost of a car is per mile rather than per year.
 
> Calculating another way, a car costs $20k and 5% cost of capital which also gives cost of owning vs sharing as about $1k/y.
 
Gotta think this number varies wildly tho - urban v rural v single v multiple, etc

> Also, we ignored miles driven between pickups, which is negligible in Manhattan, but likely material in most places. That's going to grab some of those savings back.
 
Certainly - but still more "efficient" than having one car per person - thus "mass transit"

> Those savings will appeal to many especially in the city where cars are needed less frequently or instead of the family's Nth car.
 
Exactly - this is where services like Zipcar and Uber have flourished - low usage/high cost areas

> But, $1050/y to have your own car--- you can keep your stuff in it and it's waiting for you and no stranger left a mess in it and you aren't annoyed by surge pricing--- in most situations I think that makes sense[2]
 
Perhaps it'll become a status symbol to "own" your own vehicle as more people decide true cost of ownership is outweighed by lower out of pocket spending. The $1000/yr seems super low, btw - 20k miles at 40 mpg x $2 gal = $1,000 on gas alone - 10k miles = $500 - and that doesn't include insurance, depreciation, monthly payment, service costs, etc

unclejr <watsona64@gmail.com>: May 23 06:32AM -0700

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 6:37:02 PM UTC-5, RSFC Moderator wrote:
 
> And I don't see why electric mightn't happen before or after the others (assuming they all happen).
 
> Can someone explain why they all imply each other?
 
> Thanks.
 
We already have tons of hybrid cars on the road. Electric cars are the next step. There are charging stations/parking spaces up close to a grocery store where I live that are for electric vehicles only. I never see a vehicle parked in those spaces, but it's a matter of time.
"the_andrew_smith@yahoo.com" <agavinsmith@gmail.com>: May 23 06:34AM -0700

I'm all for 2 & 3. Don't care about 1
"The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior" <iamtj4life@gmail.com>: May 23 06:39AM -0700

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:32:04 AM UTC-5, unclejr wrote:
 
> > Can someone explain why they all imply each other?
 
> > Thanks.
 
> We already have tons of hybrid cars on the road. Electric cars are the next step. There are charging stations/parking spaces up close to a grocery store where I live that are for electric vehicles only. I never see a vehicle parked in those spaces, but it's a matter of time.
 
Range paranoia seems to still be the biggest stumbling block - cost will come down over time
JGibson <james.m.gibson@gmail.com>: May 23 06:42AM -0700

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 9:32:04 AM UTC-4, unclejr wrote:
 
> > Can someone explain why they all imply each other?
 
> > Thanks.
 
> We already have tons of hybrid cars on the road. Electric cars are the next step. There are charging stations/parking spaces up close to a grocery store where I live that are for electric vehicles only. I never see a vehicle parked in those spaces, but it's a matter of time.
 
So I actually met up with an old classmate of mine at my re-union in 2015. She had a Leaf. The problem was she had to hit a charging station somewhere between the LA suburbs and San Diego, where she currently lived. A gasoline-powered car could make that whole trip with no refills. Plus, the charging takes a couple hours from what I understand. I suppose both of those could be improved. But also, where does the electricity come from? Coal?
"the_andrew_smith@yahoo.com" <agavinsmith@gmail.com>: May 23 06:48AM -0700

I wouldn't call it paranoia.
 
I'm not interested in a car that is going to make me hang out at a charging station for a couple hours so I can drive 150 miles.
 
The petroleum engine remains one of the greatest creations of mankind. The fact that it gives you the freedom to go anywhere at the drop of a hat is incredible.
 
Do I foresee a day where battery cars can accomplish the same? I don't know. Based on current battery technology, I don't. But no one knows,what mankind can develop when the imaginations of many are set free.
 
I suspect there will be some onboard (fueled) power source other than rechargeable batteries in the future, and the rechargeable car will be a (not so?) fond memory.
"The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior" <iamtj4life@gmail.com>: May 23 06:53AM -0700


> I'm not interested in a car that is going to make me hang out at a charging station for a couple hours so I can drive 150 miles.
 
> The petroleum engine remains one of the greatest creations of mankind. The fact that it gives you the freedom to go anywhere at the drop of a hat is incredible.
 
> Do I foresee a day where battery cars can accomplish the same? I don't know. Based on current battery technology, I don't. But no one knows,what mankind can develop when the imaginations of many are set free.
 
Never, ever discount the power of profit motive
Some dued <theodoreward@gmail.com>: May 23 07:19AM -0700

If either me or my wife had a leaf, we could use our other car for any long trips. But the vast majority of our driving is in and around town.
Would not be a good only car though.
"The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior" <iamtj4life@gmail.com>: May 23 07:25AM -0700

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 9:19:34 AM UTC-5, Some dued wrote:
> If either me or my wife had a leaf, we could use our other car for any long trips. But the vast majority of our driving is in and around town.
> Would not be a good only car though.
 
makes sense - I can certainly see the appeal for "errand running" type of trips - or even commutes for many people - but yeah - longer trips - issue
dotslashderek@gmail.com: May 23 07:57AM -0700

Errand running + the daily commute, which may be the biggest piece of the puzzle. I suspect for most people the majority of their miles each year is the round trip to work M-F, not the occasional long jaunt on the weekend.
 
We have a good number of electric cars in our parking garages. More hybrids though. I'm guessing basically every person with a full electric is also rocking a regular car for longer trips and just using the electric for the work commute and those around town errands.
 
That's really where I see 1-3 converging - servicing folks on their daily commute to work. You need a system that's more reliable than Uber (I need to be certain my request each morning is serviced at a reasonable rate), and I would prefer not having to jaw with a driver on the way in. Like the idea of getting dropped (and picked up) right at my building. And if, over time, that became the standard - think how much would be saved on parking lots.
 
Especially up here where they're often built underground - we have thousands of underground parking stalls spread out across four lots - some of them are 4 levels deep - I'm guessing spending on those was in the hundreds of millions range...
 
(It'd be nice to assume we were heading in the other direction where most folks would just be working out of their home office and collaborating with slack, hangouts, vcs, webex, etc - but even in IT it feels like things are going in the other direction. I think ibm just decided to pull the majority of their remote workers back in - yahoo famously did that a while back, intel quietly did the same before them, etc. It's all about "elevator stories" and "hallway conversations" right now).
 
Cheers.
Emperor Wonko the Sane <doug@sorensensdomain.net>: May 23 09:42AM -0700

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 6:37:02 PM UTC-5, RSFC Moderator wrote:
 
> And I don't see why electric mightn't happen before or after the others (assuming they all happen).
 
> Can someone explain why they all imply each other?
 
> Thanks.
 
If you can call up a car on an app, get to where you want and not have to park it, why would you want to own one. No maintenance costs. No storage. No worries about theft or vandalism (for you, anyway). The vision seems a little too Utopian, but that's how the reasoning goes.
 
Doug
JGibson <james.m.gibson@gmail.com>: May 23 09:46AM -0700

Interesting article regarding cost and electric cars:
 
https://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-true-cost-of-powering-an-electric-car.html
Eagle@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan): May 23 05:07PM

On Tue, 23 May 2017 07:19:30 -0700 (PDT), Some dued
 
>If either me or my wife had a leaf, we could use our other car for any long trips.
 
What's wrong with having a Merceds or Lexus and Lincoln for all trips?
 
Hugh
 
 
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Eagle@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan): May 23 05:14PM

On Tue, 23 May 2017 07:57:09 -0700 (PDT), dotslashderek@gmail.com
wrote:
 
>s though. I'm guessing basically every person with a full electric is also=
> rocking a regular car for longer trips and just using the electric for the=
> work commute and those around town errands.
 
It was nice to be 10-15 minutes from portal to office door and free
parking for 400+ cars for 35 years.
 
From 1952 to 1957 I walked to work almost every day - about 4 blocks.
In 1957 I moved and in 1962 the building moved.
 
Hugh
 
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Eagle@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan): May 23 05:15PM

On Tue, 23 May 2017 09:42:41 -0700 (PDT), Emperor Wonko the Sane
 
>If you can call up a car on an app, get to where you want and not have to p=
>ark it, why would you want to own one.
 
I'm an offensive driver - I enjoy scaring people.
 
Hugh
 
 
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Some dued <theodoreward@gmail.com>: May 23 10:17AM -0700

I love my battery powered lawn mower, its quiet and light. I never have to stop mowing to go get stinky gas in the back of my car. I never have to figure out why it won't start in 100 deg. weather. So much nicer, but if I owned a lawn service it wouldn't make sense.
 
I think I'd like a Nissan Leaf for much the same reasons.
Eagle@bellsouth.net (J. Hugh Sullivan): May 23 07:13PM

On Tue, 23 May 2017 10:17:29 -0700 (PDT), Some dued
>stop mowing to go get stinky gas in the back of my car. I never have to fig=
>ure out why it won't start in 100 deg. weather. So much nicer, but if I own=
>ed a lawn service it wouldn't make sense.
 
I have not had a personal use for any lawnmower since our oldest son
could push one. I used a REAL push mower when I was a kid. When he
started the new mower I wondered what that sudden noise was.
 
Our sons allowance was based on the tasks they did at home.
 
Both sons are in their 50s so we have had a lawn service for more than
30 years (actually about 3 of them).
 
>I think I'd like a Nissan Leaf for much the same reasons.
 
Lexus has spoiled me.
 
Hugh
 
 
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"the_andrew_smith@yahoo.com" <agavinsmith@gmail.com>: May 23 12:53PM -0700

As someone who frequently uses Uber, I think that's a pretty awesome utopia.
"the_andrew_smith@yahoo.com" <agavinsmith@gmail.com>: May 23 12:54PM -0700

I have a push reel mower. I agree
 
But I ain't pushing it to the beach.
RSFC Moderator <rsfcmoderator@gmail.com>: May 23 03:18PM -0700

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:45:46 AM UTC-4, The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior wrote:
 
> Exactly - this is where services like Zipcar and Uber have flourished - low usage/high cost areas
 
> > But, $1050/y to have your own car--- you can keep your stuff in it and it's waiting for you and no stranger left a mess in it and you aren't annoyed by surge pricing--- in most situations I think that makes sense[2]
 
> Perhaps it'll become a status symbol to "own" your own vehicle as more people decide true cost of ownership is outweighed by lower out of pocket spending. The $1000/yr seems super low, btw - 20k miles at 40 mpg x $2 gal = $1,000 on gas alone - 10k miles = $500 - and that doesn't include insurance, depreciation, monthly payment, service costs, etc
 
I was trying to separate the fixed costs of owning a car (per year) vs the marginal cost of driving a car (per mile). For a fixed driving pattern, these add up to a total expense rate. But when we look at different ownership models with very different usages, they need to be considered separately.
 
Gas, tires, wear and tear etc are marginal (per mile) costs--- they don't go away with corporate ownership. Whereas, under corporate ownership, the cost of capital is divided over many users and largely does go away (potentially).
 
I think depreciation is mostly per mile, but there is a small per year. Service costs are almost all per mile.
 
Property taxes and registration will remain per year. These vary a lot by state.
 
Insurance today is a per year cost, but it's unclear how insuring a self-driving car will be priced. In either ownership model, I'd expect it to be a lot less than current rates.
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