Digest for alt.sports.hockey.nhl.mtl-canadiens@googlegroups.com - 21 updates in 3 topics

Friday, May 26, 2017

Mike <mike@gmail.com>: May 26 10:21AM -0300

http://www.csnbayarea.com/sharks/sharks-robinson-parting-ways-after-five-seasons
 
But na, can't have someone in there to replace a foxhole buddy. We gotta
keep JJ Donut and his demonstrably poor development of defensive
prospects. There's no room in the foxhole for successful coaches with a
Montreal past. Would make Bergy look bad.
Chuck <barberphoto411@gmail.com>: May 26 06:51AM -0700

The article creates the impression Robinson wants to retire to be a Florida based consultant, at age 65
gorgofromns@gmail.com: May 25 12:02PM -0700

Some loser Leafs fans I know were chuckling and gloating on how they're enjoying how Habs fans must be freaking on Subes success. They're looking forward to seeing Habland Nova if and when the Preds win. I, of course, delighted in informing them that the majority of Habs fans are actually pulling for Sube and wish him well. It's pleasing to bust their bubble.
Mike <mike@gmail.com>: May 25 04:48PM -0300

> Some loser Leafs fans I know were chuckling and gloating on how they're enjoying how Habs fans must be freaking on Subes success. They're looking forward to seeing Habland Nova if and when the Preds win. I, of course, delighted in informing them that the majority of Habs fans are actually pulling for Sube and wish him well. It's pleasing to bust their bubble.
 
I can honestly say that for the first time in my life I will be watching
the Stanley Cup finals involving teams not named the Montreal Canadiens
and for the first time I will actually be pulling for a team not named
the Montreal Canadiens.
 
Anyone who says that most Habs fans must be sick about PK winning a cup
aren't paying attention.
 
Go PK!
Gerry <gerry14@hotmail.com>: May 25 01:00PM -0700

The other thing that I find weird is Sens fans telling me how it must bug me that the Sens are winning. Wait, what? I live in Ottawa, I'm generally glad if the Sens do well. I don't have any particular grudge against the Sens. I don't normally care about them either way. But I find a lot of Sens fans seem to think there is a rivalry with the Habs? I never understood that.
 
l8r,
Gerry
Ed <ed.matthews@gmail.com>: May 25 02:43PM -0700

For some reason the media (Rogers talking heads) have been saying that for a year or two. I have no idea how they think there's a rivalry between the 2.
Nyssa <Nyssa@flawlesslogic.com>: May 25 05:48PM -0400

Gerry wrote:
 
> Habs? I never understood that.
 
> l8r,
> Gerry
 
I guess they're remembering a playoff series from a few
years ago between the Habs and the Sens that got pretty
nasty.
 
For me, I'm rooting for the Sens tonight. Not just because
Ottawa is a favorite city of mine, but because if we get
a Preds-Sens Final that means we're guaranteed to get a
Cup winner that has never won before which will be very
refreshing. (No, I don't count the old-time Sens team
from the 20s and 30s since it is history and a totally
different franchise. Although I knew the widow of one
of the players from 'way back then. Nice lady, nice
family...all hockey fans still.)
 
Nyssa, who is wishing she didn't have to wait until 8pm+
for the danged puck to drop
Ed <ed.matthews@gmail.com>: May 25 02:57PM -0700

Hey Nyssa, I'd take 8 pm any day. Try 9:30 for a start.
In the office by 7 AM.
 
Ed
Nyssa <Nyssa@flawlesslogic.com>: May 25 06:49PM -0400

Ed wrote:
 
> Hey Nyssa, I'd take 8 pm any day. Try 9:30 for a start.
> In the office by 7 AM.
 
> Ed
 
I agree with you there. Those 10:30pm starts were a killer,
and I usually didn't make it through the entire game. Mornings
do tend to come early. :)
 
Right now, I'd just like to get things started. I'm anxious
to see who the Preds will have as an opponent.
 
Then having to wait until MONDAY night for the first game
of the Final to start is going to be excruciating! Although
I would imagine more than a few of the players will welcome
the time off to do a bit of healing and resting before the
real fun starts.
 
Nyssa, who hopes that the week's rain finally stops for the
weekend so she can catch up on outside yard and garden work
and before she ends up with webbed feet
Mike <mike@gmail.com>: May 25 10:49AM -0300

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/montreals-terrible-judgment-exemplified-by-subbans-stellar-playoff-run
Gerry <gerry14@hotmail.com>: May 25 07:51AM -0700

On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 9:49:07 AM UTC-4, Mike wrote:
> https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/montreals-terrible-judgment-exemplified-by-subbans-stellar-playoff-run
 
It's kind of funny to see a bit of hyperbolic bandwagon jumping going the other direction for a change.
 
Frankly, I do not think Marc Bergevin will EVER actually "regret" this trade. Lots of Habs fans might, and lots of us did the moment it was made. But I can't imagine Bergevin will ever feel like he made a mistake. He got the player he wanted, got rid of the player he wanted to get rid of, and I'm sure he'd tell you today that he's 100% confident he got the better player, the better person, the better fit to the team he wants to build.
 
Of course, it shows what a dolt he is. But that isn't going to change.
 
And for all that the Preds are on a great run, and Subban has some great underlying numbers, it's really not all about him. They'd probably be on this run with Weber too.
 
Subban has been hobbled by his back injury, he's not "fast skating" by any stretch these days, and really never was.
 
He's playing great D, and I find it hilarious whenever I read people reacting like that's something new, or that he somehow changed his game in response to the heartbreak of being traded out of Montreal. He's always been that good defensively. It's just a matter of where the media spotlight chooses to shine. In Montreal, they'd shine on a giveaway or the times when his risky moves failed. He still does that stuff. But now there's more attention on the good stuff. And most of them don't even realize yet that this is only a hobbled Subban playing well below his capabilities.
 
I hope Subban wins with the Preds, for his own sake as a great guy, and for the good of hockey in general in the sense that the Preds are a team which I feel plays a good style of hockey. Any hope of "revenge" on Bergevin is going to fall on deaf ears, however.
 
l8r,
Gerry
Chuck <barberphoto411@gmail.com>: May 25 08:00AM -0700

On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 9:49:07 AM UTC-4, Mike wrote:
> https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/montreals-terrible-judgment-exemplified-by-subbans-stellar-playoff-run
 
MB failed because he did little if anything to expand the team's depth. Weber for Subban, looking at the past season only, was a sideways move at best. Unfortunately the team had just too many support players who were past their best before dates aswell as being little if any threat to any of the core player's icetime. Without push from below, too many players were invisible too often and too long. Too many willing to accept MT's koolaid
Chuck <barberphoto411@gmail.com>: May 25 08:09AM -0700

On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 10:51:15 AM UTC-4, Gerry wrote:
 
> I hope Subban wins with the Preds, for his own sake as a great guy, and for the good of hockey in general in the sense that the Preds are a team which I feel plays a good style of hockey. Any hope of "revenge" on Bergevin is going to fall on deaf ears, however.
 
> l8r,
> Gerry
 
They had two pairs of defencemen who played well together as well as been active and key elements of the team's offence both on the PP and equal strength. Imagine how many more points Weber could have had if he hadn't been shackled to Emelin for a good chunk of the season. Only MT would pair a player who had a great shot with a player who had no passing/playmaking skills and consider it a success because it made the weaker player stronger at the expense of the team's best defenceman
Gorgo <gorgo@accesswave.ca>: May 25 08:24AM -0700

On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 10:49:07 AM UTC-3, Mike wrote:
> https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/montreals-terrible-judgment-exemplified-by-subbans-stellar-playoff-run
 
I disagree with this whole "I told you so" attitude of this article. I like Sube and hope he wins the cup but I also like Weber and what he brings to the Habs. I look at things this way. Will (can) the Preds win the cup without Sube? I truly think so. Face it, IMO Sube is the 3rd or maybe even 4th best Dman on that team. He is not the teams defensive kingpin. Can the Habs win without Weber? I think not, he's just too important and they don't have others good enough to fill his shoes. Switch them back to their respective teams and I still think Mtl would have lost and the Preds would still be where they are. Couple weeks ago some talking head on TSN 690 was discussing Sube and the Preds playoff run and if the Habs got stiffed in the trade. He said it best IMO, in that Sube played well this year but he didn't give Gashville a 9 million dollar season. Even in the playoffs he's been but one of 4 or 5 Dmen that are all playing well and he's clearly behind Josi and Ellis in the depth chart.
 
All said and done I'm happy for Sube, I'm pulling for Gashville but I'm also happy we have Weber. Actually, I wish we had them both.
Gerry <gerry14@hotmail.com>: May 25 09:00AM -0700

Hmm, while I agree that I didn't really like the "I told you so" attitude in the article, I think from watching a lot of the Preds now, that Subban is indeed going to prove to be the best of their defense. I know some Preds fans are still a little reluctant to accept this, given their long-seated appreciation for Josi, and the recent uptick in Ellis' contribution. So it's not a uniformly accepted opinion yet.
 
They really do only have the 4, though... Weber and Irwin are both clearly so far below the top 4 that you can't go to a "4 *or 5*" statement. It's the 4.
 
And I also don't think there's a "depth chart" on the 4 right now. TOI is 25:56, 25:52, 25:34, 23:59. Subban is 2nd on that list, 4 seconds behind Josi. They're 11, 10, 10, 8 pts. I don't believe special teams utilization reveals any reason to rank them either. My impression is that Subban and Ekholm are used more against top opponents, and I've seen some of their impressive Corsi-like stats, but I'd imagine Josi and Ellis are doing fine and the coach is not afraid to match them against anybody either.
 
All in all, I don't think there is any mileage to be had in rating the other Nashville D above or behind Subban. Based on this playoff run.
 
On the regular season, I don't think Subban was as good, and they definitely had some struggles getting the pairings to function, it was perhaps even part of the reason that the team struggled a bit relative to expectations. Subban and Ekholm was a topic of concern for Preds fans for a good stretch of the season. Neither was as good as Josi or Ellis in the regular season. And for sure, Subban was nowhere near a $9M player.
 
But then, I've also seen Subban at his best, and I fully believe he's not close to being at his best right now, even in the playoffs. He's as good as the other Nashville D right now. But he's also playing a significant notch below the level I've seen him play at for the Habs in the past. I'm attributing this to the suspected injury factor, for now. (It's admittedly possible that Subban has just fallen off, however, and maybe he'll just never be that good again, who knows. OR that the injury is going to be chronic and he'll just never fully recover, either way).
 
So that's my basis for believing that he's actually better than Josi or Ellis. He's a little better than them defensively and physically right now. A little worse than them offensively. But when he gets back to full health, he'll be better than them in all categories.
 
All 4 are truly playing like kingpins right now, I wouldn't want to say one was 3rd or 4th best, nor that one was a kingpin and another wasn't.
 
Yet over the long haul, I still believe it will turn out that Subban is indeed the best, not just on his team, but perhaps in the entire league again, and indeed a $9M player. Nashville hasn't seen that Subban yet, unfortunately. We saw him, albeit sometimes with chains on. I don't think Josi or Ellis, as good as they are, will ever be in quite that elite category. Subban was once, and could be again, hopefully if he just gets healthy.
 
l8r,
Gerry
gorgofromns@gmail.com: May 25 11:58AM -0700

Sube still proves to be a high risk, high return player, more so than Josi and Ellis IMO. Then again, so is Ottawa's Karlsson and he's pretty good... I think. Perhaps with Mtl Sube was trying too hard, too often and thus was prone to mistakes. Now it looks like he's picking his spots more. I've always felt that there isn't a Dman in the world, save for Karlsson perhaps, that I'd want on the ice if it's late in the game and you need a goal.
Gerry <gerry14@hotmail.com>: May 25 12:57PM -0700

Yeah, I don't even think he actually does pose a "high risk". That's part of the myth. He's a high return player, period.
 
Once in a while he makes a play that many hockey traditionalists think was unnecessarily complicated or risky, yes. The thing is, though, he's consciously *trying* to make that play, showing confidence and creativity. Whereas other players make *more* turnovers or miscues that actually weren't part of a conscious effort to be creative or anything. The other players are actually riskier and fumble their "safe" dump outs more often than Subban makes a complicated risky maneuver. But Subban gets more attention for 1 of his failures to execute a risky play than they do for all of their failures to execute simple plays put together.
 
Karlsson has come a long way too. He makes risky plays, and pulls them off. He makes risky plays and sometimes fails. But he definitely doesn't draw as much attention for the miscues as Subban does either.
 
l8r,
Gerry
Chuck <barberphoto411@gmail.com>: May 25 01:07PM -0700

> Sube still proves to be a high risk, high return player, more so than Josi and Ellis IMO. Then again, so is Ottawa's Karlsson and he's pretty good... I think. Perhaps with Mtl Sube was trying too hard, too often and thus was prone to mistakes. Now it looks like he's picking his spots more. I've always felt that there isn't a Dman in the world, save for Karlsson perhaps, that I'd want on the ice if it's late in the game and you need a goal.
 
I think MT's dump and chase system numbed all his players playmaking and positioning skills. When they moved the puck to teammates, it left the recipients with no room to do anything with it. Give any of them a clear lane to the net, most of them could muster a scoring chance. Close the lane, they were lost on what to do with it next, other then clear it into a corner. PK and Galchenyuk both became players who hung onto the puck too long
Chuck <barberphoto411@gmail.com>: May 25 01:10PM -0700

On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 3:57:37 PM UTC-4, Gerry wrote:
 
> Karlsson has come a long way too. He makes risky plays, and pulls them off. He makes risky plays and sometimes fails. But he definitely doesn't draw as much attention for the miscues as Subban does either.
 
> l8r,
> Gerry
 
All good players have to take risks, but when given the chance, they out produce any mistakes. Too bad they had a coach who viewed mistakes as a capital offense for all but his most tenured veterans
Jim Bauch <j.bauch@ca.rr.com>: May 25 02:54PM -0700

On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 7:51:15 AM UTC-7, Gerry wrote:
> And for all that the Preds are on a great run, and Subban has some great underlying numbers, it's really not all about him. They'd probably be on this run with Weber too.
 
Probably true. But you know that if Nashville had missed the playoffs, or crashed out in the first round, and the Habs advanced a round, you know we'd all be hearing about how this was a total vindication of The Trade.
 
Hell, a lot of pundits pounced back in November when Weber was on an early-season tear and Subban was hurt, and declared that The Habs Won The Trade. So while I'm not going to make the argument myself, I will enjoy the irony of seeing the simple-minded, results-based talking point shoved back in their faces.
 
Jim
Gerry <gerry14@hotmail.com>: May 25 02:59PM -0700

On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 5:54:29 PM UTC-4, Jim Bauch wrote:
> or crashed out in the first round, and the Habs advanced a round,
> you know we'd all be hearing about how this was a total vindication
> of The Trade.
 
That is sooo true. I never thought of it that way before. Ok, so those going over-the-top the other way just got more of a pass from me. :)
 
l8r,
Gerry
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